200 FTX - Going the other way

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200 FTX - Going the other way

Postby Hoot » Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:03 pm

While I respect others pursuing just how much muzzle velocity and energy they can achieve short of damaging their rifles, I am going the other way. Aside from determining a cost effective jacketed, paper-punching load, my only other interest is working up an adequate CXP2 loading AKA Whitetail Load. Up until now, I have had excellent results using a 150 gr .308 for deer. As I've joked before, I'm not trying to kill several standing abreast with one shot.

The standard load of 37 gr Lil Gun pushing the 250 FTX worked out just fine, producing an average velocity of 2252 fps and shooting a little over 1 MOA at 100 yards. That was with a poorly fitting scope (too low). Something I am in the process of remedying as I write this. That will be a fine load if I decide to hunt CXP3 or dangerous game, but IMHO way overkill for the thin skinned Whitetail.

So, I am experimenting with the 200 gr FTX. I believe the TKO value at 2200 fps yielding 2150 ft/lbs of muzzle energy to be more than adequate for Whitetails, while being more pleasant to shoot. I've taken many of them in the thick woods of Northern Minnesota with my longest shot being 70 yards. There is not a lot of data available for free WRT the 200 FTX out of the 450B. The data available for the 460 S&W seemed like a good starting point.

I loaded some three shot test-lots with 41, 42 and 43 gr of 2400. I seated the bullets to the second cannelure without expanding the cases to get as much neck tension as possible with the shorter 200s, followed by a trip through the taper crimp to .477. I didn't get very far with the test though. The 41 gr loads passed over the chrony at 2574, 2582 and 2569 fps. The perceived recoil was much more harsh than the 250s at 2200 despite the recoil calculator saying the 250s had more recoil. The group at 100 yards was a lot looser than the 250s. Though the primers did not show undue flattening, the brass had pronounced extractor and ejector marks. They sealed well in the chamber as there was no sooting whatsoever around the mouths. I have not measured them for other case distortion. Needless to say, I didn't bother shooting the 42 and 43 gr loads.

When seating the bullets, there was a barely perceivable crunching at the 43 gr load which I read as sightly compressed. I have no concerns reducing the loads downward a little, until the marks on the head diminish with an ultimate goal of 2200 fps unless I find an accuracy node along the way, or sooting starts. When my YHM risers come, I intend to load up some 37, 38, 39 and 40 gr loads. There's not a lot of wiggle room on seating depth, so I can't play much with leade to try and find an accuracy node like I do with my bolt action varminters (.223, .22-250, 6mm Rem and .260 Rem).

I will report more after my next range outing. Once I find my sweet spot for these, I will do the milk jugs or wet phone books test. Depends upon when we get new phone books at work. ;)

Hoot
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Re: 200 FTX - Going the other way

Postby pitted bore » Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:50 pm

Hoot-
For your three 41-grain loads with 200-grain bullets, your average velocity was 2575 fps.

When I loaded my 185-grain bullets with 2400, I obtained the following velocities:
40 grains . . 2498 fps
41 grains . . 2576
42 grains . . 2614
43 grains . . 2621

For 41 grains, the nearness of your average (2575) to my value (2576) is spooky.
(Thread where my data were posted last Sept.: http://450bushmaster.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=113

--Bob

Edited to add thread URL
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Re: 200 FTX - Going the other way

Postby Hoot » Sat Apr 24, 2010 8:38 pm

DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME, EVER!
Okay, now that we have the litigation BS out of the way :roll:

Here are the results from today (4/25). FWIW, I suck shooting a 450b with my benchrest setup. I'm way better with one of my thumbhole bolt actions.
Can't blame the scope. Just lack of experience with the Rock-n-Roller ;)

Image

As stated earlier. I'm just interested in a comfortable, effective CXP2 load. Not trying to impress folks going through "That age bracket" where we need to impress everyone, someone, anyone... :)

Hoot
Last edited by Hoot on Fri May 21, 2010 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 200 FTX - Going the other way

Postby pitted bore » Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:05 pm

Hoot wrote:Not trying to impress folks going through "That age bracket" where we need to impress everyone, someone, anyone...
Hoot-
Too late; I'm impressed, even though I suspect I'm not in "that age bracket". Maybe it's a mental age?

It was a nice touch to Include the spreadsheet lines about equivalent caliber and bullet weight. These are based on muzzle energy with factory loadings, right?

I'm trying to understand your statement about "no expander used" in your reloading procedures. Did you use the full length resizing die from Hornady, then skip the flaring/expanding die, and seat your bullets after priming and powdering?

I'm asking because I did this unintentionally a couple of times. Skipping the flaring after FL resizing has resulted in a collapsed case neck. The base of the bullet simply mashed the case mouth, and did not slide into the case. The jackets of the bullets were badly scraped also.

--Bob
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Re: 200 FTX - Going the other way

Postby Hoot » Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:58 am

pitted bore wrote:
Hoot wrote:Not trying to impress folks going through "That age bracket" where we need to impress everyone, someone, anyone...
Hoot-
Too late; I'm impressed, even though I suspect I'm not in "that age bracket". Maybe it's a mental age?

It was a nice touch to Include the spreadsheet lines about equivalent caliber and bullet weight. These are based on muzzle energy with factory loadings, right?


Yes. One of the online Muzzle Energy Calculators includes some canned, popular calibers to compare your results against. I did look at several as to where they placed on the Hodgdon Reloading Data and they were not the hottest, nor the lightest representative. More like mainstream loads for the calibers. The point I was shooting for was that even loaded down, they were comparable in performance to many tried-n-true White Tail calibers. Who would not feel comfortable bustin' a deer under 75 yards with a 12 Ga rifled slug? Even a Low-Brass, which is all I used in my old J.C. Higgins Bolt action when I was a kid, back in Maryland.

pitted bore wrote:I'm trying to understand your statement about "no expander used" in your reloading procedures. Did you use the full length resizing die from Hornady, then skip the flaring/expanding die, and seat your bullets after priming and powdering?


I did full-length resize during decapping. I clean my brass ultrasonically, which gets them amazingly clean inside and out. I did chamfer them carefully, but I did not use the flaring/expanding die in an attempt to obtain good neck tension since the bullet is shorter than the 250s.

pitted bore wrote:I'm asking because I did this unintentionally a couple of times. Skipping the flaring after FL resizing has resulted in a collapsed case neck. The base of the bullet simply mashed the case mouth, and did not slide into the case. The jackets of the bullets were badly scraped also.
--Bob


Admittedly, I've only done this 28 times so far, but no case damage and could not feel any tearing as I seated the bullets. I use a single stage press, so I pause and rotate the case 2 or 3 quarter-turns during seating. Ditto during taper crimping. The idea being to remove any upset from lack of concentricity. It's not a precise conscious process. just pull the handle a little...pause...tweak, pull...pause...tweak, pull...pause...tweak, pull to finish. There is a significant loss of effect from the taper crimp die when I do not use the flare/expanding die. I could hardly detect any engagement of the case, which isn't necessarily a bad thing in terms of overworking the brass. I did pull a couple of the bullets the first time I tried this and measured them to make sure they weren't getting squeezed so much as to resize them and they were fine. I rarely, if ever, crimp when loading rounds for my bolt actions.

I really need to get some trigger time in to improve my presentation on the bench with this class of rifle. I gotta admit though. It's not as boring as sitting there with one of my thumbhole bolt actions, making one hole at 100 yds, which is as far as our rifle range goes. It's more like Boom, "Gee why'd it do that?" Boom, "Gee why'd it do that?" Boom, "That's better." Boom, "That's different." Boom, "Whoa! Mulligan." Click, "Shoot! That's all I have for this weight. Oh well." :|

If the rain holds off, I hope to fill in the missing charge weights later this morning when the range opens. I forgot to mention. As you would expect, it's getting more pleasant to shoot the lower the charge weight I go. Combined with the brake, recoil pad and Shake WeightImage It's almost to the point where my wife could handle it. ;)

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Re: 200 FTX - Going the other way

Postby wildcatter » Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:41 am

Hoot,

This is some really good work. How was the sooting, over your load ranges (I'm looking for sealing here. Sooting, for you guys less experienced than the Hoot-Man here, is an indication of incomplete cartridge sealing, usually caused from low pressures, or insufficient crimping.)? What did the pressure signs look like and how was extraction at the top end (looking for timing issues here)? Other than the speeds are far higher than the 200ftx is designed for, it still will have plenty of missions and your work points a way for FMJ and Hard Cast 185-230's. If I ever get done with this Range Lab, I'll get you some pressure results with all this equipment just sitting here..t
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Re: 200 FTX - Going the other way

Postby Hoot » Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:54 am

Image

I knew no matter how hard I tried to remember to write down all the details, I would forget something.

As I mentioned in the first post of this thread. At the top load 41 gr 2400, the seal was absolute and the rounds came out clean. They did however display heavy extractor and ejector marks. The same seal was present all the way down to 38 gr and the marks grew fainter, eventually disappearing. At 38 gr I saw sooting like I see on the 250s at 2200 fps. IE little bit around the mouth. At 37 and 36 there were no head marks whatsoever. Sooting took on a different look though. There was the a small amount of the darker stuff around the mouth like I already mentioned and then there was a light smudging all over the brass like the action was opening when the residual smoke from the round was more concentrated. You almost didn't notice it if you didn't rub it with a clean finger. Still, there was no traces of unburned powder and the barrel, which I cleaned between each charge weight change. WRT the bore, it really didn't need cleaning from what came out, but I do that when working up loads. We all have our own mantras we invoke WRT bore cleaning and I won't burden you with mine. Bore cleaning seems to be as personal as fishing technique. Yeah, you put the line in the water and pull the fish out, but that is as much in common as you'll find from one person to the next. Way too many commercial profit centers involved and the efficacy waters just get cloudier by the minute. There I go again...
Off to the shop now to load up the 35s and 34s. I expect to reach the 2200 fps mark by then. I you load these down closer to .460 S&W, I suspect they will not over-expand, but that's for the milk jug tests in a few weeks. I still have to raid the neighborhood recyclable bins several more Thursday mornings without getting arrested. :lol:
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Re: 200 FTX - Going the other way

Postby brewdos » Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:00 pm

I finally got a chrony and have been using the 200 gr FTX for a while. I used 43 gn of Lil’gun and got some really nice groups @ 2600 fps from my 16” bushy. I have no idea what kind of chamber pressure or kinetic energy it has but it left that beautiful big bore hole on my bushmaster paper target for all to see. How can I calculate kinetic energy and chamber pressure? I guess my next step is to try and make some ballistic gel. What is the OAL that you get with this load. Mine was 2.05".
Thanks
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Re: 200 FTX - Going the other way

Postby Hoot » Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:27 pm

brewdos wrote:I finally got a chrony and have been using the 200 gr FTX for a while. I used 43 gn of Lil’gun and got some really nice groups @ 2600 fps from my 16” bushy. I have no idea what kind of chamber pressure or kinetic energy it has but it left that beautiful big bore hole on my bushmaster paper target for all to see. How can I calculate kinetic energy and chamber pressure? I guess my next step is to try and make some ballistic gel. What is the OAL that you get with this load. Mine was 2.05".
Thanks


I have updated the previous chart image to reflect today's work with 35 and 34 gr of 2400. Note: you may have to refresh your browser's cache to see the new values. There is an interesting accuracy node around 2150-2200 fps as I had hoped. Loaded to that velocity, this bullet, optimized to expand at slower speeds should prove worthy for the thin-skinned White Tail deer. As others predicted, sooting increased more with these two additional loadings, but there still was no unburned powder and the sooting was not extreme. No signs of clawing that would indicate the timing is too close for comfort. I hope to accumulate enough thin-skinned milk jugs to do some penetration runs, possibly by this weekend coming.

As an added attraction, I decided "WTH, lets try those Berry 230 gr TMJ plated bullets behind 38 gr of 2400". They shot clean with no sooting, nor face marks, but shed some small jacket shards coming out. The bullets made the target sheet at 100 yds cleanly, but a few of the shards hit my chrony, giving me a start. One impacted the plastic display protector bezel stopping just short of the display itself. That stopped that effort right there! They ran at 2300 fps. They did not keyhole on target, having a cleaner hole than the FTXs. Won't be going there again. I executed one chrony a couple of years ago and have no desire to repeat that mistake.

Brewdos, I wanted to keep the ogive out as far as possible, but did not want to sacrifice crucial neck tension. So, as my chart showed, I went with a COL of 2.195 inches. That was as far as I felt comfortable going. Magazine dimension does not permit seating as near the lands as I would like. My Lock-n-Load gauge indicates these rifles have a long leade on them and the 200 FTX just does not lend well to taking up the distance. Well, you can't have it all I suppose.

Hoot
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Re: 200 FTX - Going the other way

Postby pitted bore » Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:45 am

brewdos wrote: . . . How can I calculate kinetic energy and chamber pressure? . . .

brewdos-

Kinetic energy is found with this calculation, where weight is bullet weight in grains, and velocity is feet per second: Energy = weight * velocity * velocity / 450450

If you are obtaining 2600 fps with a 200-grain bullet, your muzzle energy is about 3001 foot-pounds.

There is no reliable way to estimate chamber pressure except the use of apparatus designed and set up to measure pressure. I'd guess it's somewhere between 30,000 and 70,000 psi, but that isn't very helpful <grin>.

--Bob
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