Range Report: Remington Accutips (Final)

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Range Report: Remington Accutips (Final)

Postby Hoot » Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:09 pm

If I shot this caliber competitively, I would buy a case of them, bring them with me and give them to my competitors.

I'm not sure what Remington was trying to accomplish with this round, but their QC, assuming it exists, leaves a lot to be desired and it ripples into their performance. As I already covered in the lead-up thread, their case tolerances seem to be at odds with the cartridge's own specifications. You can read about it in this thread.

I usually don't rush to judgement based upon one box of ammunition, from one lot, but first impressions are lasting impressions.

Before we get to the victuals, there's the water shot, like I've done with other bullets.

Like the Hornady 250 FTX,the 260 Accutip penetrated 5 jugs coming to rest in the 5th. The first two were obliterated. The third was split almost in two. The 4th had an aggravated entry and exit, but remained whole. The bullet almost made it out of the 5th, but couldn't quite break the skin. The Accutip being a flying ashtray of a jacketed hollowpoint with that odd, big plastic tip over the mouth, started out at 260gr, finished the journey at 163gr, or 63%.

Image

The 250 Hornady FTX wound up going just as far, at a higher velocity, but weighed 198gr,or 79%.

Image

Both were shot about 15 feet from the jugs. Both would have expanded at much lower velocities, given their over-performance at full speed. I did not have enough confidence in the accuracy of the Accutip to try a shot at water jugs at 100 yards.

Here's the ballictic results, containing three iterations of the Remington and a control group featuring the Hornady FTX loaded at pretty much the standard load of 38gr Lil Gun, to 2.28 COL with a .475 Taper Crimp:

Image

I sincerely believe the wider SD is the result of no mouth crimp of any kind and if you go on the varying mouth diameters covered in the lead-up thread, probably varying neck tension.

The diffuse groups reflect this as well:

Image

The Hornady 250 FTX performed it's regular, reliable way in the lower right target. I'm not trying to sound like I went into this test with an "Anti-Remington" agenda. It actually has the distinction of being the first commercial ammunition my bushy has had the privilege to shoot. It just didn't live up to all the rabid anticipation heaped upon it earlier this year, in these forums. Perhaps it is optimized for the shorter 16" Bushy. Assuming the Hornady commercial ammunition shoots like my attempt to handload them equivalently, there is no choice to be made as to which I would use, regardless of whether I'm shooting bullseyes at 100 yards or that once in a lifetime hunt.

Respectfully submitted,

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Re: Range Report: Remington Accutips (Final)

Postby Texas Sheepdawg » Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:32 pm

Thanx Hoot. I know we all wanted the Remmys to perform well. It was a great disappointment when I started hearing about the QC or lack there of in the athstetic conditions of some of the units our guys have been getting, and I suspected then that the performance was not going to be that impressive. I really wanted to hear good news, but thanx for telling us what we NEED to hear, not what we want to hear. After Remmy bought out Bushmaster, and after being treated the way that I was treated by the "new" bushy conglomeration, it really comes as no surprise, just another tragic disappointment to the black rifle community.
I am curious though. Could the Remmy crimp be tested by pulling a few bullets? Could a Hornady taper crimp or the LeGendre side crimp be applied to the factory rounds and shot safely in an attempt to see if the groups would tighten up?
What we are seeing so far is poor QC and shabby production along with inadequate crimping, contributing to poor performance. These issues can all be improved upon easily. If we can build a better cartridge in our own little shops, certainly Remmy has the resources to retrain or fire and hire better QC staff. Remmys' current one-handed attempt at the 450 Bushmaster cartridge seems to indicate their heart's not in it.
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Re: Range Report: Remington Accutips (Final)

Postby Siringo » Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:00 pm

Good job HOOT -- the factory ammo groups and velocity we pretty much the same as I had gotten with the hand loaded bullets. Those posts are somewhere on this site --- as usual, I can not find them. Crimp has nothing to do with the accuracy -- IMHO -- with this ammo (remmy). The bullets are undersized and have a wide weight variation. Neither are conducive to accuracy. The BC is horrid also -- just check out Remmy's stats for the 20 gauge ammo. These will not shoot as flat or retain velocity as well as the Hornady 250's. BUT the look cool. No doubt in the field they will perform well. Most of our shoots will be less than 100 yards anyway..
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Re: Range Report: Remington Accutips (Final)

Postby Hoot » Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:06 pm

Texas Sheepdawg wrote:Thanx Hoot. I know we all wanted the Remmys to perform well. It was a great disappointment when I started hearing about the QC or lack there of in the athstetic conditions of some of the units our guys have been getting, and I suspected then that the performance was not going to be that impressive. I really wanted to hear good news, but thanx for telling us what we NEED to hear, not what we want to hear. After Remmy bought out Bushmaster, and after being treated the way that I was treated by the "new" bushy conglomeration, it really comes as no surprise, just another tragic disappointment to the black rifle community.
I am curious though. Could the Remmy crimp be tested by pulling a few bullets? Could a Hornady taper crimp or the LeGendre side crimp be applied to the factory rounds and shot safely in an attempt to see if the groups would tighten up?
What we are seeing so far is poor QC and shabby production along with inadequate crimping, contributing to poor performance. These issues can all be improved upon easily. If we can build a better cartridge in our own little shops, certainly Remmy has the resources to retrain or fire and hire better QC staff. Remmys' current one-handed attempt at the 450 Bushmaster cartridge seems to indicate their heart's not in it.
I HOPE I'M WRONG.


I'd be careful extrapolating that the only factor contributing to the performance I got as being solely the result of what appears to be lack of crimp. There could be multiple reasons, including "I got a bad batch". Others may get conflicting, better results with theirs. Is there room for improvement? Certainly. Could we apply a crimp and see what the result is? Certainly. Would pulling down a few reveal if the neck tension is consistent or not? Possibly, but it would take a controlled extraction method that allowed for accurately measuring the resistance. And what if they were actually the same tension? Where I'm headed with this is that the end result is a collection of more than one or even two variables. I don't know what powder they used, other than it smelled different than Lil Gun. Given a lower velocity than can be explained by the additional 10gr of plastic tip, my guess would be a slower powder. Neck tension, while important in preventing the bullet from pulling from the inertia of chambering, is less important in terms of complete combustion the heavier a projectile is. We need someone with a 16" barrel, who is set up for controlled accuracy testing, to weigh in with their results. I have three rounds left from the box. I've not decided what to do with them yet. I could throw on a taper crimp and shoot them to see what happens to the velocity and accuracy, but that's a small sample to try to draw any useful conclusion from. If I'm feeling lucky, I'd like to try a water shot at 100 yards. Ditto on trying to get one of them the go through my chrony set up at 100 yards. Hitting a line of jugs just right is tricky at that distance, especially given their track record for accuracy so far.

There is plenty of incentive and useful data to be gleaned by some other controlled experiments by other members, but it comes at a price of a box or two of that ammunition and to what end? We have ammunition that has a proven track record already. Like I said, I don't usually buy manufactured ammunition, but I realize there are those who don't reload. Perhaps one of them will feel the impetus to have a go at it, starting with someone with a 16" barrel. They could wind up being the cat's meow in a 16". Who knows...

I've had like three hours of sleep since Wednesday morning, so I'm off to bed for now.

Note: I was composing this while Siringo was posting...
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Re: Range Report: Remington Accutips (Final)

Postby pitted bore » Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:26 pm

Hoot-
Your results are very similar to those I posted last May (LINK). My group size was larger with the Remington.

With Remington factory ammo in my 26-inch barreled rifle, the 9-foot velocity was 2066 fps average, with SD=36.6 fps.
Hornady factory was 2237 fps average, SD=15.8 fps.

Here's a Link to Siringo's thread in which he reported on his results shooting the Rem bullets he pulled from the shotshells.

Hoot wrote:Assuming the Hornady commercial ammunition shoots like my attempt to handload them equivalently, there is no choice to be made as to which I would use, regardless of whether I'm shooting bullseyes at 100 yards or that once in a lifetime hunt.

That is the big assumption, isn't it. The Hornady factory stuff is really good, but I suspect your handloads are at least marginally more accurate. The control needed is either for you to load some of the Rem bullets, or for you to shoot some Hornady factory to find out whether it is equivalent to your handloads.

Good stuff - thanks.
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Re: Range Report: Remington Accutips (Final)

Postby commander faschisto » Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:32 pm

Not surprised...I mentioned in a previous post that I had fairly closely inspected a case of Remmy 260s I bought relatively recently. Along with being uniformly fugly due to what looks like drops of some sort of dried liquid splashed on the cases and boolits, I could easily detect three manufacturing variations at the case mouth/crimp areas: 1) Case mouth crimped inward, onto the bullet surface; 2) Case mouth not crimped at all, going "straight ahead", and 3) Case mouth canted outward, away from the bullet surface, like it had just barely been bumped with an expander plug. None of this makes for consistent accuracy, I have to think.

Just goes with the recent years of Remmy territory, I guess. Over on a big rimfire forum I'm on, seems like everyone on the forum has sworn off ever buying another round of Rem rimfire ammo due to terrible QC also. Thank you SO MUCH, Freedom Group...you morons! :evil:

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Re: Range Report: Remington Accutips (Final)

Postby Hoot » Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:11 am

When I was a younger man, I could shake that party maker all night long, come into work with a smile on my face and put in a solid 8 . Not anymore. This morning, I feel like I was rode hard and put away wet. That's a lame attempt at apologizing for not comparing my notes to Siringo's and pitted bore's. My skull was pretty numb at the time I put the report together.

Anyway, though I consider this ammunition to be a road I'll never travel, we have an opportunity for the inmates to run the asylum. If I could get another box (or two) what would be meaningful tests that you all would like to see me try to pursue, with emphasis on meaningful? I'm not looking for busy work, nor to just add statistical depth to what I've already seen.

FWIW, it turns out they have something else in common with the Hornadys beside ease of expansion. The brass also gets a lot shorter after the first firing:

Image

Off to the shower....

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Re: Range Report: Remington Accutips (Final)

Postby Texas Sheepdawg » Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:13 pm

Well, seeing how the Remmys performed in Hoots test, there would be no point in running a batch through my 20". I have always like Remmy. And current performance is no indicator of the QC of the old school Remmy ammo or firearms. Maybe they will find their way back to the QC of yesteryears, but until then, I am just going to stick with Hornady and other options.
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Re: Range Report: Remington Accutips (Final)

Postby Stealthshooter » Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:03 pm

I measured the accutip that DB1 sent me and it measured .450" so it does not surprise me they don't shoot all that well. I will also second the thoughts about rem rimfire ammo. I have never had so many FTF as I did with the last brick of remmy I bought. Oh I almost forgot my Dad has a Remington SP10 and the only ammo that will not cycle his action is Remmy. Seems as they need to pick it up a notch.
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Re: Range Report: Remington Accutips (Final)

Postby BillytheKid » Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:56 pm

Wow, just, wow....

I purchased several boxes of the Remington Accutip ammo because of the promised accutip accuracy.

I haven't shot any yet, but I must say that I am disappointed in Hoot's results.

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