Dies for 450

[pitted bore]

My question to Dave would be what kind of crimp is built into the seating die?

Hoot-
I've traded a couple of emails with him, so I'll ask your question.

What I can't understand is that after having their product out for quite some time and knowing the taper roll crimp is absolutely the wrong crimp for this caliber, WHY is Hornady still producing it that way?

Fixed your oopsie - no charge <grin>.

--Bob

[Hoot]

My question to Dave would be what kind of crimp is built into the seating die?

Hoot-
I've traded a couple of emails with him, so I'll ask your question.

What I can't understand is that after having their product out for quite some time and knowing the taper roll crimp is absolutely the wrong crimp for this caliber, WHY is Hornady still producing it that way?

Fixed your oopsie - no charge <grin>.

--Bob

Thanks Bob. Of all the words in my diatribe to get wrong, I picked the worst one. I edited the original post also.

The folks over on the 6.5 Grendel forum are having a food fight over Hornady brass and dies for their caliber. I suspect (read don't know for sure) that Hornady may have tried to hit both the classic Grendel chamber spec and the .264 LBC/CSS/ETC with one product. Their defenders are blaming it on the prints they got. The same prints Lapua and Prvi Partizan got and their brass works fine. I have nothing but praise for their bullets. Just wish the same commitment was there in their brass and dies. If you don't believe me, take a quality micrometer, caliper, Tim's cartridge spec and a box of their 450b brass and see how many dimensions match up. See how many +0-10 dimensions are -5 to -10 for the entire box of 50. I recently bought a set of their New Dimension Custom Grendel dies and threw away the sizing die for wrong neck sizing tolerance, opting to instead buy a Forster sizing die. It was spot on to the thousandth. I didn't send the out of tolerance one back as others who bought the set were getting the same problem with theirs. No point in getting a replacement with the same problem. Midway,in their typical Midway fashion put the remaining ones they had on sale and unloaded them quickly.

I have no axe to grind with Hornady. Their customer service has treated me kindly and I love their seating dies (discounting the roll crimp thing). I don't know if they have too many irons in the fire or what, but I wish they'd get back to the company who's name was synonymous with quality, no matter what they made. They need to push back against the Walmart Mentality that is gripping our nation. I can't believe I'm saying this, but if you have to raise the price to keep up the quality, then raise the damn price.

said like Forest Gump "and that's all I'm gonna say about that."


Hoot
AKA Andy Rooney

[Jim in Houston]

This topic is getting very confusing for us new guys. Let me summarize my understanding from this thread and a couple of others re using the Hornady 4-die set.

Use the "Sizer" die to decap and size the case.
Use the "Expander" die only to "flare" the neck the minimum amount needed to allow the bullet to be inserted in the case a tiny bit prior to seating, if it cannot be inserted that tiny bit without using the die. (Sorry, but "tiny bit" is not a very technical term. I mean enough so that the bullet is held in the case prior to using the seating die.)
Use the "Seater" die to seat the bullet to get the correct COL. Do not use the crimping collet part of the Seater, since this imparts a "roll" crimp, which is not appropriate for the 450 B.
Use the fourth die (it has no name in the set I got) to put a taper crimp in the case to acheive a neck diameter of .476, if the case neck is larger than this.

Any comments, corrections, or elaborations?

[Hoot]

This topic is getting very confusing for us new guys. Let me summarize my understanding from this thread and a couple of others re using the Hornady 4-die set.

Use the "Sizer" die to decap and size the case.
Use the "Expander" die only to "flare" the neck the minimum amount needed to allow the bullet to be inserted in the case a tiny bit prior to seating, if it cannot be inserted that tiny bit without using the die. (Sorry, but "tiny bit" is not a very technical term. I mean enough so that the bullet is held in the case prior to using the seating die.)
Use the "Seater" die to seat the bullet to get the correct COL. Do not use the crimping collet part of the Seater, since this imparts a "roll" crimp, which is not appropriate for the 450 B.
Use the fourth die (it has no name in the set I got) to put a taper crimp in the case to acheive a neck diameter of .476, if the case neck is larger than this.

Any comments, corrections, or elaborations?

You got it right for the most part Jim. However, if you do not use the expander die, trust me you won't get the bullet into the case at all by hand, prior to engaging the seating plug. The sliding guide-sleeve in the seating die keeps it very well aligned and it will start in whether you use the expander or not. You just hold the bullet in place with you thumb and index finger until the guide sleeve starts to support it when you raise the ram. The bullets do not have a sharp cornered base. I've never had one not start right and wind up crushing or splitting the case yet. Also,the loaded mouth will never be .476 on its own. It'll take a little squeezing by the taper crimp die to get there.The only breath-sucking moment may come when you seat a bullet and it bulges the mouth to the point where it wants to drag or get stuck in the guide sleeve and you wind up pulling the sleeve out of the die. I've only had that happen with cut down .284 brass because I didn't ream them.

Cut down .284 brass has lots of potential, but requires some extra preparation with them as the walls are thicker than 450b brass. You have to ream a small amount out down the insertion depth of the bullet. oldmanjeffers says he was able to make them work by fire forming them, but I could not reproduce his results. The .284 brass use Large Rifle Primers, so you might be able to milk a little more performance out of a 22 inch barrel model by dropping back a powder burn-rate step or two. I have not gotten to that point. The thicker walled .284 will tolerate a slightly higher chamber pressure for obvious reason, which might also allow you to milk a little more performance. At the worst, using standard chamber pressure, you can probably assume you'll get longer case life. Don't be misled. You don't need more velocity with the FTX family of bullets as they're designed to expand admirably at modest velocities and can possibly over-expand at too high a velocity. Just some additional minutia.

Hoot


Hoot

[pitted bore]

Jim-
That is a good concise summary.

Don't forget to lube the cases before resizing.

The only needed amendment concerns the expander die use.

Case mouths should be expanded as needed to prevent the case from crumpling when a bullet is seated. As Hoot notes, no expansion may be necessary. I've accordioned a couple of cases when I did not use the expander die. Whether you have to expand or not will depend on relative dimensions of your resized case, bullet base shape and diameter, and your techniques.

Let us know how it actually works for you.

--Bob

[Jeepejeep]

This is great info, guys, thanks! Now if I could only find a set of dies!

[Jim in Houston]

Hornady dies for the 450 are on backorder at Midway, but are expected in 12 days from now (May 17th). I have found they usually beat their backorder dates and you can have them notify you by email, when they are in stock. $69.99 - about $5 more than when I bought mine. Hopefully this represents an uptick in demand for them.

[wildcatter]

And make sure, after the reloading process, you remove the lube, so as not to induce un-needed bolt thrust..

..t

[tkknc]

What do you find is the best process for removing the lube?
I have been using a damp rag, but always wonder, if I am getting it all off.

[Jeepejeep]

I always tumble my brass for a few hours after sizing. Never had any problems and the cases don't have any lube on them after. If you don't have a tumbler (I'd suggest you get one) maybe lay them out on a rag and spray with brake cleaner or some kind of other degreaser that leaves no residue.